Obsidian v cpu hungry analogue modeling synths?

edited December 2018 in General chat

It’s very early to judge obsidian, but I’m already falling in love with it. There is one specific aspect of it where I have a small suggestion about which I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts.

As flexible as obsidian is, I suspect many people will end up finding room for occasional use of cpu hungry analogue modeling synths (my personal favorite are DRC (now testing the auv3 beta) and Model 15) alongside obsidian every now and then.

What I’m wondering about is this: am I wrong to suspect that the one area where obsidian stands to gain the most (in comparison with those cpu hungry analogue modelers) is the filter section - e.g. by adding some oversampling options (maybe just on the analogue modeled filter shapes) for special occasions like in the internal Waveshaper effect?

(Where I’m coming from on this: saturation characteristics is a well known area where oversampling pays huge dividends by raising the threshold at which adding saturation introduces harsh aliasing artifacts. (I take it that Matt agrees given that he added oversampling options on the Waveshaper.) I’m not sure, but I suspect that having a similar 4x/8x oversampling option at least on the analogue modeled filter shapes would still keep obsidian way more cpu efficient than loading up a cpu hungry analogue modeling synth, but would go a very long way towards covering more of their territory. The other thing is: being able to pair obsidian’s awesome digital oscillator types with filters that have less noticeable aliasing artifacts when saturating would open the door to so much juicy hybrid territory..
)

Tl; dr: obsidian v hungry analogue modeling beasts: how much further could obsidian go in that territory with oversampling options on the analogue modeled filters?

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Comments

  • But filter is per voice so 8X oversampling would be HUGE on the CPU.
    But the magic on analog synths is for me the audio rate stuff which Obsidian can‘t do (using OSC as modulation source and everything should be running at sample rate).
    But you can „mimic“ some of these distinct analog sounds with filter FX or other workarounds.
    However, Model D, Zeeon and DRC remains the holy 3 for me on iOS for this kind of stuff.

  • @Cinebient @OhWell I kept the Moog Model D and Model 15 on my iPad, as well as several Korg synths simply because you can’t get those sounds anywhere else. I’m content to use them when I need “analog” sound.

    It would be great to have more analog modeling in Obsidian, but I do wonder what that would do to it’s efficiency.

  • @cinebent That’s super interesting about audio rate modulation being the more important thing. Model 15 is also up there for that, no?

    I should clarify, my assumption is that it’s totally fine for there to be uses for synths that aren’t obsidian. Eg: audio rate modulation might be a perfect example of that. My mindset here is: identifying simple ways to expand the wonderful palette obsidian offers with little to no impact on the UI and core design.

    Just out of curiosity, do you know how much oversampling eg DRC and eg Model D (heck, animoog too) are doing in the filters section? I do realize that filte oversampling per voice is a big cpu hog, but my thought was that for the special occasions where people want sounds that rely on filter saturation + resonance with low harsh artifacts, turning on oversampling in an obsidian filter would remain more cpu efficient than eg firing up DRC or a Model D..

  • edited December 2018

    @kleptolia Agreed! I guess that’s a better way to put the question: (1) how much more efficient would obsidian remain vs Model D/DRC/etc if it had the option of turning on, for special occasions, as much oversampling as these dedicated analogue modelers do in the filter section? (2) How valuable would that option be for users?

  • @OhWell said:
    @cinebent That’s super interesting about audio rate modulation being the more important thing. Model 15 is also up there for that, no?

    I should clarify, my assumption is that it’s totally fine for there to be uses for synths that aren’t obsidian. Eg: audio rate modulation might be a perfect example of that. My mindset here is: identifying simple ways to expand the wonderful palette obsidian offers with little to no impact on the UI and core design.

    Just out of curiosity, do you know how much oversampling eg DRC and eg Model D (heck, animoog too) are doing in the filters section? I do realize that filte oversampling per voice is a big cpu hog, but my thought was that for the special occasions where people want sounds that rely on filter saturation + resonance with low harsh artifacts, turning on oversampling in an obsidian filter would remain more cpu efficient than eg firing up DRC or a Model D..

    It’s a good thought, and I’m curious to know what @Blip Interactive thinks about it. I do recall he wrote a post on here about how to achieve a more “tape sounding saturation” in-app but I’m not sure if that was Obsidian specific.

  • Not sure but i think f.e. Zeeon runs everything oversampled 4X and Model D maybe as well (maybe even higher for the outstanding saturation which is another important part for me).
    About audio rate stuff. It´s a thing i personally love and it not a must of course for some analog flavor.
    You can do just some great timbres and FX with it like vowel effects, saxophone and guitar like timbres and whatever or just weird and awesome FX :)
    But if you have f.e. (like in Obsidian) formant, comb and whatever filters you might not need this at all.
    Not sure if i´m allowed to post this here but i try. A good example for what audio rate stuff can do:

  • Interesting thread. For now I, like you guys too I am sure, use other synths for other sounds. On older devices where CPU is a major limiting factor, committing to audio clips in Slate is important, rather than having too many AU causing problems. If the idea is not to create tracks, but rather to improvise live with as many synth apps running as possible, using audio clips (later audio tracks), then this doesn't help so much.

    Personally, I'd like to see Obsidian remain basically how it is so that it remains CPU efficient. Much after the stated priorities are handled (iPhone, Audio Tracks, misc updates), I'd like to see completely new synths added as IAP for NS2. Then a dedicated Analog Monster synth could focus on that sound, albeit with the magic Blip Interactive CPU efficient coding. I don't know if there are any plans to add additional instruments to NS2, and I will bet that after the exhausting marathon to get NS2 this far, Matt won't even consider it at this point, but maybe one day. What will we be discussing a year from now...?

  • Oh and of course while i think for analog power there are better synths Obsidian is a wonderful and outstanding synth. Just sample some Model D madness into it.
    I mean can you run even 10 Model D pads with 4 note chords? ;)

  • edited December 2018

    @OhWell @Cinebient

    :mrgreen: I was silently waiting how long after release somebody opens topic of Obsidian's non-oversampled filters :-)) I was abusing Matt during developement a lot with this :-)) Evil me, poor Matt :-))

    Like @Cinebient mentioned, oversampling (OS) is huge CPU eater. Specially in polyphonic synths. And for synths like Zeeon or Model D it is in some cases also disadvantage, because you don't need OS always - in significant set of sounds it is just complete wasting of CPU - to put it simple - basically all sounds with low or almost no resonance doesn't get much benefit from OS filters

    What exact issue solves oversampling then ?

    In digital domain you cannot have in signal nothing above "nyquist" frequency which is half of sample rate (nanostudio uses realtime sample rate 44 khz, so nyquist frequency is 22khz)

    In case that something exceeds this frequency, it starts generate aliasing. I don't want put here too much technical details, so simply it means that for example very high resonance, specially played on higher notes, doesn't sound nice.

    OS fixes this problem using simple technique. Before filter it resamples audio to, let's say 96khz sample rate, then processes it through filter, and then downsamples it back to 44khz.

    Oversampling DOES NOT affect if synth sound more or less analog like - this is different topic. Different factors. Ok, of course except of very high resonance. Which sounds better on oversampled digital or on analog synth. Because there is no aliasing on analog synth, obviously :-)

    Now. What next.

    1/ Future solution

    (bear in mind, this is NO official Blip Interactive promise of anything ! Just my personal ideas how to improve this part of Obsidian but still leave possibility of supper efficiency)

    1a/ Add posibility to turn ON oversampling when needed (ideally some switch in Obsidian - so per instance, global settings would be not good because really in many many cases you don't need oversampling at all and to use it us wasting of CPU. Bass sounds with small or no resonance, leads, pads witrhout reso, etc etc.

    1b/ Add another variants of filters to filter selection which will use OS. So there will stay possibility to use efficient nonOS filters when OS is not needed)

    I would appreciate solution 1b/ ... simply new options like "12 dB A/os", "24 dB A/os" and so on. I hope that Matt would like this solution also because it does not need any additional UI. Just pure DSP coding and few new items in filter variant dropdown I would PAY for IAP package of OS filters

    2/ Temporary solution.

    **It's simple. Do 96khz export (mixdoen) ** As i said, NS in realtime mode uses 44khz, so everything above 22khz == mess. If you do export in 96khz, it mesns that nyquist frequency is now 48khz - that is looot better. Try it, make sime sounds with super high resonance, then do 44khz and 96khz export - hear thst difference ? Huge.

    Regarding audio rate modulation - this is even higher CPU killer than oversamplimg and this is in my opinion no-go for such complex synth like Obsidian. If all that toms of possible modulations should run at audio rate, then possibly only device which will be able to rum at least ONE instance of Obsidian would be latest iPad PRO with A12x CPU :-)

    I believe that one day we will see another build in synth with simplified structure, less modulations posibilities, BUT audio rate modulation, 16x oversampled filters, analog circuirs modelling and other goodness, which will kill all "analog like" AU synths. But also your CPU :mrgreen:

  • Good stuff here.

    I wonder if something like an option "1c/" which will save us from our CPU eating selves is possible?

    1. User enables Oversampling via switch or filter type
    2. If resonance is above N, Obsidian actually does oversampling. If not, it saves your CPU for running minecraft in the background.
    3. If resonance is above N, when Obsidian is triggered by the keyboard (or external MIDI) it turns oversampling ON since it can't possibly know what notes are coming at it.
    4. BUT. If it's being triggered by the sequencer, it could determine in advance if and or when it needs to enable OS dynamically by pre-calculating the nyquest.

    In a sense, this would work like filter oversamlping "freezing".

    Indeed, once audio tracks are a thing, perhaps this all gets a lot simpler in that Matt can safely enable [per filter instance] oversampling and users can freeze Obsidian tracks in the same way we might freeze Model 15 tracks.

  • edited December 2018

    @dendy Ha, why am I not surprised?

    I have much more experience with OS and saturation in the context of waveshaper/drive type effects than synth filters, so I first noticed the issue with the filter set to WS. Then I started twiddling with drive and resonance on the filters and the difference with the filters in Moog, DRC, etc became very obvious.

    Kazrog’s products really spoiled my ears for saturation, btw, my dream analogue modelling monster would need 32x oversampling. 👹. Edit: I just realized that for products not meant for high amounts of distortion, Kazrog knows better than to go 32x. (So Thermionik has the option to go 32x, but e.g. true iron only does 2x OS. Other products in the line fall in between.) I honestly don't know where my sweet spot would be for filter saturation. Hehe!

  • @Will

    Yeah that sounds like Matt classic optimalization wizardry.. i preffer still my 1b/ because it looks like most simple solution (no UI needed at all, just simple oversample and downsample) - most simple solution means higher probability it will be sooner than 10 years from now :mrgreen:

  • @dendy said:
    @Will

    Yeah that sounds like Matt classic optimalization wizardry.. i preffer still my 1b/ because it looks like most simple solution (no UI needed at all, just simple oversample and downsample) - most simple solution means higher probability it will be sooner than 10 years from now :mrgreen:

    +1

  • edited December 2018

    @OhWell said:
    @dendy Ha, why am I not surprised?

    I have much more experience with OS and saturation in the context of waveshaper/drive type effects than synth filters, so I first noticed the issue with the filter set to WS. Then I started twiddling with drive and resonance on the filters and the difference with the filters in Moog, DRC, etc became very obvious.

    Yeah but still -isn't it worth to sacrifice quality in some more extreme areas for such incredible efficiency ?
    And it still sounds totaly awesome in lot other areas where aliasing dosn't happen that much or not at all. It's allrounder, of course with it's boundaries. But still vast ocean of great sounds :)

    Plus good it there is workaround and there is hope one day it will be solved somehow. Till then, there are AU CPU killers when Obsidian losts breath :))

  • @dendy said:
    @Will

    Yeah that sounds like Matt classic optimalization wizardry.. i preffer still my 1b/ because it looks like most simple solution (no UI needed at all, just simple oversample and downsample) - most simple solution means higher probability it will be sooner than 10 years from now :mrgreen:

    Yar. If track Freezing becomes an option then it's a little safer, support wise, to simply enable it. Otherwise, I fear he'll get overwhelmed with "¡but obsidian is supposed to be so efficient!" complaints. :)

  • @dendy said:
    @OhWell @Cinebient

    :mrgreen: I was silently waiting how long after release somebody opens topic of Obsidian's non-oversampled filters :-)) I was abusing Matt during developement a lot with this :-)) Evil me, poor Matt :-))

    Like @Cinebient mentioned, oversampling (OS) is huge CPU eater. Specially in polyphonic synths. And for synths like Zeeon or Model D it is in some cases also disadvantage, because you don't need OS always - in significant set of sounds it is just complete wasting of CPU - to put it simple - basically all sounds with low or almost no resonance doesn't get much benefit from OS filters

    What exact issue solves oversampling then ?

    In digital domain you cannot have in signal nothing above "nyquist" frequency which is half of sample rate (nanostudio uses realtime sample rate 44 khz, so nyquist frequency is 22khz)

    In case that something exceeds this frequency, it starts generate aliasing. I don't want put here too much technical details, so simply it means that for example very high resonance, specially played on higher notes, doesn't sound nice.

    OS fixes this problem using simple technique. Before filter it resamples audio to, let's say 96khz sample rate, then processes it through filter, and then downsamples it back to 44khz.

    Oversampling DOES NOT affect if synth sound more or less analog like - this is different topic. Different factors. Ok, of course except of very high resonance. Which sounds better on oversampled digital or on analog synth. Because there is no aliasing on analog synth, obviously :-)

    Now. What next.

    1/ Future solution

    (bear in mind, this is NO official Blip Interactive promise of anything ! Just my personal ideas how to improve this part of Obsidian but still leave possibility of supper efficiency)

    1a/ Add posibility to turn ON oversampling when needed (ideally some switch in Obsidian - so per instance, global settings would be not good because really in many many cases you don't need oversampling at all and to use it us wasting of CPU. Bass sounds with small or no resonance, leads, pads witrhout reso, etc etc.

    1b/ Add another variants of filters to filter selection which will use OS. So there will stay possibility to use efficient nonOS filters when OS is not needed)

    I would appreciate solution 1b/ ... simply new options like "12 dB A/os", "24 dB A/os" and so on. I hope that Matt would like this solution also because it does not need any additional UI. Just pure DSP coding and few new items in filter variant dropdown I would PAY for IAP package of OS filters

    2/ Temporary solution.

    **It's simple. Do 96khz export (mixdoen) ** As i said, NS in realtime mode uses 44khz, so everything above 22khz == mess. If you do export in 96khz, it mesns that nyquist frequency is now 48khz - that is looot better. Try it, make sime sounds with super high resonance, then do 44khz and 96khz export - hear thst difference ? Huge.

    Regarding audio rate modulation - this is even higher CPU killer than oversamplimg and this is in my opinion no-go for such complex synth like Obsidian. If all that toms of possible modulations should run at audio rate, then possibly only device which will be able to rum at least ONE instance of Obsidian would be latest iPad PRO with A12x CPU :-)

    I believe that one day we will see another build in synth with simplified structure, less modulations posibilities, BUT audio rate modulation, 16x oversampled filters, analog circuirs modelling and other goodness, which will kill all "analog like" AU synths. But also your CPU :mrgreen:

    And don´t forget to add per voice saturation/distortion for analog pads =)
    Nah....i think Obsidian is exact what it should be. For everything else there are the AUv3.
    And a good point that you just need oversampling for certain things. Also some synths offer different modes where you can set a low cpu mode or a very fast mode for extreme fast envelopes, LFOs and OSCs as source etc.
    I mean Zeeon f..e is actually extreme versatile and almost a semi-modular due to the matrix. It still runs fine on my iPhone with huge chords and audio rate modulation everywhere while 4X oversampled.
    So it is possible if needed.
    Model D has just and outstanding filter section and saturation for me. The only synth which beats the crap out of even many desktop synths (but not all) here.
    The magic here also happens since you really can gain stage it analog like (DRC is great as well here) The filter will overdrive nicely and while you add saturation it still sounds clear and punchy.
    Indeed i don´t think NanoStudio needs such a synth since we have a few of them already and i don´t think they are more cpu demanding as a dedicated intern analog synth would be within NS2.
    But who knows......if that is possible write it to the wish list and add a 32X oversampled wavefolder on top =)

  • edited December 2018

    @Cinebient said:

    @dendy said:
    @OhWell @Cinebient

    :mrgreen: I was silently waiting how long after release somebody opens topic of Obsidian's non-oversampled filters :-)) I was abusing Matt during developement a lot with this :-)) Evil me, poor Matt :-))

    Like @Cinebient mentioned, oversampling (OS) is huge CPU eater. Specially in polyphonic synths. And for synths like Zeeon or Model D it is in some cases also disadvantage, because you don't need OS always - in significant set of sounds it is just complete wasting of CPU - to put it simple - basically all sounds with low or almost no resonance doesn't get much benefit from OS filters

    What exact issue solves oversampling then ?

    In digital domain you cannot have in signal nothing above "nyquist" frequency which is half of sample rate (nanostudio uses realtime sample rate 44 khz, so nyquist frequency is 22khz)

    In case that something exceeds this frequency, it starts generate aliasing. I don't want put here too much technical details, so simply it means that for example very high resonance, specially played on higher notes, doesn't sound nice.

    OS fixes this problem using simple technique. Before filter it resamples audio to, let's say 96khz sample rate, then processes it through filter, and then downsamples it back to 44khz.

    Oversampling DOES NOT affect if synth sound more or less analog like - this is different topic. Different factors. Ok, of course except of very high resonance. Which sounds better on oversampled digital or on analog synth. Because there is no aliasing on analog synth, obviously :-)

    Now. What next.

    1/ Future solution

    (bear in mind, this is NO official Blip Interactive promise of anything ! Just my personal ideas how to improve this part of Obsidian but still leave possibility of supper efficiency)

    1a/ Add posibility to turn ON oversampling when needed (ideally some switch in Obsidian - so per instance, global settings would be not good because really in many many cases you don't need oversampling at all and to use it us wasting of CPU. Bass sounds with small or no resonance, leads, pads witrhout reso, etc etc.

    1b/ Add another variants of filters to filter selection which will use OS. So there will stay possibility to use efficient nonOS filters when OS is not needed)

    I would appreciate solution 1b/ ... simply new options like "12 dB A/os", "24 dB A/os" and so on. I hope that Matt would like this solution also because it does not need any additional UI. Just pure DSP coding and few new items in filter variant dropdown I would PAY for IAP package of OS filters

    2/ Temporary solution.

    **It's simple. Do 96khz export (mixdoen) ** As i said, NS in realtime mode uses 44khz, so everything above 22khz == mess. If you do export in 96khz, it mesns that nyquist frequency is now 48khz - that is looot better. Try it, make sime sounds with super high resonance, then do 44khz and 96khz export - hear thst difference ? Huge.

    Regarding audio rate modulation - this is even higher CPU killer than oversamplimg and this is in my opinion no-go for such complex synth like Obsidian. If all that toms of possible modulations should run at audio rate, then possibly only device which will be able to rum at least ONE instance of Obsidian would be latest iPad PRO with A12x CPU :-)

    I believe that one day we will see another build in synth with simplified structure, less modulations posibilities, BUT audio rate modulation, 16x oversampled filters, analog circuirs modelling and other goodness, which will kill all "analog like" AU synths. But also your CPU :mrgreen:

    And don´t forget to add per voice saturation/distortion for analog pads =)
    Nah....i think Obsidian is exact what it should be. For everything else there are the AUv3.
    And a good point that you just need oversampling for certain things. Also some synths offer different modes where you can set a low cpu mode or a very fast mode for extreme fast envelopes, LFOs and OSCs as source etc.
    I mean Zeeon f..e is actually extreme versatile and almost a semi-modular due to the matrix. It still runs fine on my iPhone with huge chords and audio rate modulation everywhere while 4X oversampled.
    So it is possible if needed.
    Model D has just and outstanding filter section and saturation for me. The only synth which beats the crap out of even many desktop synths (but not all) here.
    The magic here also happens since you really can gain stage it analog like (DRC is great as well here) The filter will overdrive nicely and while you add saturation it still sounds clear and punchy.
    Indeed i don´t think NanoStudio needs such a synth since we have a few of them already and i don´t think they are more cpu demanding as a dedicated intern analog synth would be within NS2.
    But who knows......if that is possible write it to the wish list and add a 32X oversampled wavefolder on top =)

    Not sure if I’m for or against on this one. Half of me says ‘for higher quality just use 3rd party’. But the other half says ‘would be nice to have that kind of quality in obsidian to mix and match with the other synthesis types in obsidian for sound design’.

    If it’s relatively easy to just switch on oversampling and suddenly we have model d type quality filter/saturation etc in Obsidian then no-brainier addition. But I have no idea whether it’s that simple and if it isn’t then I think ns2 should be focusing more on adding contemporary bread and butter daw functionality than Obsidian functionality for the forseeable. Daw functions first, work on obsidian and internal fx etc after... There’s a lot of good au and aufx now, but still problems with most iOS daws, matts energy is better spent elsewhere for now imho..

  • All great points folks. @flockz Yes, part of the question is indeed: how much/little work would it actually take to just enable it 1b) style in the way @dendy describes. For the love of saturation!

    Animoog is a super interesting example of the kind of territory that might open up with that. Sounds to me like the filter uses OS, and it works wonders to bring back some of the harsher digital sounding oscillator settings into analogu-esque Moog territory.

  • edited December 2018

    @OhWell
    For the love of saturation!

    But OS have completely nothing to do with saturation or analog drive.. actually obsidian filter contains emulation of analog filter ovedrive (12A and 24A modes) - in my opinion pretty good - obviously that third knob "drive" :lol:

    OS is just and only for removing aliasing during high resonance (eg. in human language, that not much nice high pitched disharmonic tone)

  • edited December 2018

    @dendy said:

    @OhWell
    For the love of saturation!

    But OS have completely nothing to do with saturation or analog drive.. actually obsidian filter contains emulation of analog filter ovedrive (12A and 24A modes) - in my opinion pretty good - obviously that third knob "drive" :lol:

    OS is just and only for removing aliasing during high resonance (eg. in human language, that not much nice high pitched disharmonic tone)

    Why do plugins like pro-l use it? I always assumed it was for super hi-def detail in modelling/algorithms/calculations and so on? Not just for filter resonance? Genuine question! I have zero knowledge on this..

  • edited December 2018

    distortion .. that's another thing which works better without aliasing - so oversampling is good idea ..

    That's why in NS2 "waveshaper" module you can turn on oversampling. When you use just small overdrive it makes no difference (you can try it) .. but try it with waveshaper use hard distorion or sine/tri modes, with drive pumped to max - without oversampling turned on in some moment you start heear lot of noise - but when you turn out 8x oversampling, noise disappears and it will again sound like ... totaly distorted audio which is close to noise :)) but noise. . it will have still some character ...

    Another area where OS removes non-linear distortion (==aliasing) is FM synthesis .. to keep it simple basically every process which can result to creating of new frequencies which are above half of sample rate ... it's not just filter resonance, i was talking more in this specific case of filter - there it makes sense mostly because of resonance ...

  • edited December 2018

    @dendy said:
    distortion (overdrive) .. that's another thing which works better without aliasing - so oversampling is good idea .. or modulation (FM synthesis for example) .. basically every which can result to creating of new frequencies which are aboove half of sample rate ... it's not just filter resonnce, i was talking more in this specific case of filter ...

    You said it wasn’t relevant to saturation or drive in one post then say it’s good for drive in another...Confusing brainstream :)

  • edited December 2018

    It's blurred area, not exact boundary where it starts to make sense .. definitely for hard distortion ..

    but im not total expert in this area .. i know something, but not everything, i have just overview in principe .+ use my ears :))) I can be wrong in some details, so don't take me as final authority. Main point of my post were filters and resonance a what could improve it's characteristics.

    As i wrote above, try do some experiments with waveshaper, turning on / off oversampling with various levels of distortion .. and listen how it affects result .. with soft saturation, and small overdrive you will most probably not hear any difference .. bug with hard distortion and wavefolding (tri / sine modes) - it makes big difference

  • edited December 2018

    Either way, if oversampling just stops aliasing then I think it’d be a lot of work for obsidian to get close to the analog modelling of model d etc. Oversampling probably is just small part of the equation. Seems like some deep measurements and calculations have gone in to those algorithms to get them to react and sound the way they do. Matt should focus on daw features for now imho

  • edited December 2018

    Yeah, for creating emulation of real analog synch you needs to do lot more steps than just oversampling. Oversampling solves just one particular issue (distortion caused by non-linear processes , to be very exact) ... there is another set of methods which needs to be aplied if you want get faithful reproduction of analog synth. Sadly all of them are CPU hungry - lot of math :) Everything comes with a price.

  • @dendy said:
    Yeah, to make emulation of real analog synch needs lot more steps to do than just oversampling. Oversampling solves just one particular issue (distortion caused by non-linear processes , to be very exact) ... there is another set of methods which all have to be aplied if you want get faitful reproduction of analog synth. Sadly all of them alre CPU hungry :) Everything comes with a price.

    Seems pointless pursuit for a one man team when those plugins already exist. Just focus on daw features ;)

  • edited December 2018

    Agree ! But just filter oversampling would be nice, anyway.

  • @dendy said:

    @OhWell
    For the love of saturation!

    But OS have completely nothing to do with saturation or analog drive.. actually obsidian filter contains emulation of analog filter ovedrive (12A and 24A modes) - in my opinion pretty good - obviously that third knob "drive" :lol:

    OS is just and only for removing aliasing during high resonance (eg. in human language, that not much nice high pitched disharmonic tone)

    But if you add saturation to very high resonance it can be even more important. I have a few synths where things can easy add up. But i must say i´m mostly fine with 2X OS and sometimes 4X. 8X for the full engine doesn´t run on my machine anyway (only with multic-core support which seems missing in iOS).
    The wavefolder from Repro-1 (JAWS) use indeed 32X oversampling. But it´s mono only but it does sound amazing.
    Of course there is so much more. My favorite (virtual) analog synth sounds even better with OS off than others with 8X oversampling. So it´s also about great DSP and whatever.
    And i also sometimes prefer some aliasing as FX so that higher frequencies sound a bit noisy and out of tune. Some use a mixture like Beepstreet Dagger VST/AU which use 2X OS for the general engine but 8X for the filter. But it´s also a mono synth.
    Of course it can help to run a project in 96Khz or even 192Khz. Not sure if iOS DAW´s support it yet.
    There are even reverbs which do 4X oversampling but it´s not really usable for real-time audio but rather for rendering. So some tools offer better quality modes for rendering f.e.

  • @dendy said:
    Agree ! But just filter oversampling would be nice, anyway.

    Indeed.....like mentioned....it´s already there as AUv3 and NS2 support them :)

  • @dendy said:
    Yeah, to make emulation of real analog synch needs lot more steps to do than just oversampling. Oversampling solves just one particular issue (distortion caused by non-linear processes , to be very exact) ... there is another set of methods which all have to be aplied if you want get faitful reproduction of analog synth. Sadly all of them alre CPU hungry :) Everything comes with a price.

    Seems pointless pursuit for a one man team when those plugins already exist. Just focus on daw features ;)> @Cinebient said:

    @dendy said:

    @OhWell
    For the love of saturation!

    But OS have completely nothing to do with saturation or analog drive.. actually obsidian filter contains emulation of analog filter ovedrive (12A and 24A modes) - in my opinion pretty good - obviously that third knob "drive" :lol:

    OS is just and only for removing aliasing during high resonance (eg. in human language, that not much nice high pitched disharmonic tone)

    But if you add saturation to very high resonance it can be even more important. I have a few synths where things can easy add up. But i must say i´m mostly fine with 2X OS and sometimes 4X. 8X for the full engine doesn´t run on my machine anyway (only with multic-core support which seems missing in iOS).
    The wavefolder from Repro-1 (JAWS) use indeed 32X oversampling. But it´s mono only but it does sound amazing.
    Of course there is so much more. My favorite (virtual) analog synth sounds even better with OS off than others with 8X oversampling. So it´s also about great DSP and whatever.
    And i also sometimes prefer some aliasing as FX so that higher frequencies sound a bit noisy and out of tune. Some use a mixture like Beepstreet Dagger VST/AU which use 2X OS for the general engine but 8X for the filter. But it´s also a mono synth.
    Of course it can help to run a project in 96Khz or even 192Khz. Not sure if iOS DAW´s support it yet.
    There are even reverbs which do 4X oversampling but it´s not really usable for real-time audio but rather for rendering. So some tools offer better quality modes for rendering f.e.

    Repro1/repro5 are soooo good!

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