Obsidian v cpu hungry analogue modeling synths?

2»

Comments

  • Super interesting comments folks! Keep it coming!

    @Cinebient I'm curious, what synth are you referring to which sounds better without OS than most with 8x? :D

  • @flockz said:

    @dendy said:
    Yeah, to make emulation of real analog synch needs lot more steps to do than just oversampling. Oversampling solves just one particular issue (distortion caused by non-linear processes , to be very exact) ... there is another set of methods which all have to be aplied if you want get faitful reproduction of analog synth. Sadly all of them alre CPU hungry :) Everything comes with a price.

    Seems pointless pursuit for a one man team when those plugins already exist. Just focus on daw features ;)> @Cinebient said:

    @dendy said:

    @OhWell
    For the love of saturation!

    But OS have completely nothing to do with saturation or analog drive.. actually obsidian filter contains emulation of analog filter ovedrive (12A and 24A modes) - in my opinion pretty good - obviously that third knob "drive" :lol:

    OS is just and only for removing aliasing during high resonance (eg. in human language, that not much nice high pitched disharmonic tone)

    But if you add saturation to very high resonance it can be even more important. I have a few synths where things can easy add up. But i must say i´m mostly fine with 2X OS and sometimes 4X. 8X for the full engine doesn´t run on my machine anyway (only with multic-core support which seems missing in iOS).
    The wavefolder from Repro-1 (JAWS) use indeed 32X oversampling. But it´s mono only but it does sound amazing.
    Of course there is so much more. My favorite (virtual) analog synth sounds even better with OS off than others with 8X oversampling. So it´s also about great DSP and whatever.
    And i also sometimes prefer some aliasing as FX so that higher frequencies sound a bit noisy and out of tune. Some use a mixture like Beepstreet Dagger VST/AU which use 2X OS for the general engine but 8X for the filter. But it´s also a mono synth.
    Of course it can help to run a project in 96Khz or even 192Khz. Not sure if iOS DAW´s support it yet.
    There are even reverbs which do 4X oversampling but it´s not really usable for real-time audio but rather for rendering. So some tools offer better quality modes for rendering f.e.

    Repro1/repro5 are soooo good!

    Yep....not my favorite for analog but it´s really good and with excellent FX.

  • @Cinebient said:

    @flockz said:

    @dendy said:
    Yeah, to make emulation of real analog synch needs lot more steps to do than just oversampling. Oversampling solves just one particular issue (distortion caused by non-linear processes , to be very exact) ... there is another set of methods which all have to be aplied if you want get faitful reproduction of analog synth. Sadly all of them alre CPU hungry :) Everything comes with a price.

    Seems pointless pursuit for a one man team when those plugins already exist. Just focus on daw features ;)> @Cinebient said:

    @dendy said:

    @OhWell
    For the love of saturation!

    But OS have completely nothing to do with saturation or analog drive.. actually obsidian filter contains emulation of analog filter ovedrive (12A and 24A modes) - in my opinion pretty good - obviously that third knob "drive" :lol:

    OS is just and only for removing aliasing during high resonance (eg. in human language, that not much nice high pitched disharmonic tone)

    But if you add saturation to very high resonance it can be even more important. I have a few synths where things can easy add up. But i must say i´m mostly fine with 2X OS and sometimes 4X. 8X for the full engine doesn´t run on my machine anyway (only with multic-core support which seems missing in iOS).
    The wavefolder from Repro-1 (JAWS) use indeed 32X oversampling. But it´s mono only but it does sound amazing.
    Of course there is so much more. My favorite (virtual) analog synth sounds even better with OS off than others with 8X oversampling. So it´s also about great DSP and whatever.
    And i also sometimes prefer some aliasing as FX so that higher frequencies sound a bit noisy and out of tune. Some use a mixture like Beepstreet Dagger VST/AU which use 2X OS for the general engine but 8X for the filter. But it´s also a mono synth.
    Of course it can help to run a project in 96Khz or even 192Khz. Not sure if iOS DAW´s support it yet.
    There are even reverbs which do 4X oversampling but it´s not really usable for real-time audio but rather for rendering. So some tools offer better quality modes for rendering f.e.

    Repro1/repro5 are soooo good!

    Yep....not my favorite for analog but it´s really good and with excellent FX.

    Yeah it just sounds/feels really, really good. Never A/B’d it against anything but use it over hardware regularly. That U-he dude’s talented af

  • edited December 2018

    @OhWell said:
    Super interesting comments folks! Keep it coming!

    @Cinebient I'm curious, what synth are you referring to which sounds better without OS than most with 8x? :D

    P900 (i have a special love for this). It has just a distinct character i never heard yet so nice in any software. It´s a modular for mac only. It might also have to do that it´s one of the few synths i would say i really mastered :) It has such a nice saturation and best filters i heard yet in software land. But it´s of course a matter of taste as well.

  • Been reading up on digital filter design. Seems like a wonderful can of worms. One thing that might clarify the confusion I introduced and the complexity @dendy mentioned in distinguishing the importance of oversampling for distortion vs filter design: some of the stuff I just read reminded me that part of the classic Moog sound involves pushing the filter into overdrive. It's that cluster of issues with Moog style filter behavior when driven hard I meant to be bringing up with the thread. But I'm realizing the issue of reproducing that behavior digitally (at a CPU cost) is waay more complicated than just controlling for aliasing artifacts via oversampling..

    (I found this article an especially helpful overview: http://www.earlevel.com/main/2016/02/22/filters-for-synths-the-4-pole/)

  • Will check p900 out!

  • @OhWell
    issue of reproducing that behavior digitally (at a CPU cost) is waay more complicated than just controlling for aliasing artifacts via oversampling..

    this. Oversampling is just part of whole picture , plus in NS easy to solved by simply exporting mixdown at 96kHz, which means all internal processing is at 96khz too...

  • @dendy Not easy to solve with mixdown though, precisely because it’s just part of the picture.

    I’d be all over an IAP (down the road, not now - I think the current development priorities are more important) that offers some extra (and more cpu hungry) filter option with Model D style quality in the behavior of the filter when pushed into saturation/overdrive.

  • edited December 2018

    @OhWell
    Not easy to solve with mixdown though, precisely because it’s just part of the picture.

    No it IS easy. You need to understand how mixdown in 96 khz works. In this situation ALL internal processing, everything, is running at 96khz.. it's not just about some final resampling. No no. In this case really audio goes TO and FROM filter in 96khz quality.

    It REALLY works this way, you just need to try it. I'm using this all the time :) Works like a charm - all aliasing issues after doing 96khz mixdown dissapears ...

    Just put together few tracks with instruments playing on high resonance .. then do 44khz and 96khz mixdowns (bitrate doesn't matter, but i usually use 24bit because of headroom). Then compare them. You will immediately hear why 96 khz is solution :)

    More i'm thinking about it, except of live performance this (non oversampled filters) isn't issue at all :) For realtime you have super efficiency, for export super quality. Best of both worlds.

  • @dendy said:

    @OhWell
    Not easy to solve with mixdown though, precisely because it’s just part of the picture.

    No it IS easy. You need to understand how mixdown in 96 khz works. In this situation ALL internal processing, everything, is running at 96khz.. it's not just about some final resampling. No no. In this case really audio goes TO and FROM filter in 96khz quality.

    It REALLY works this way, you just need to try it. I'm using this all the time :) Works like a charm - all aliasing issues after doing 96khz mixdown dissapears ...

    Just put together few tracks with instruments playing on high resonance .. then do 44khz and 96khz mixdowns (bitrate doesn't matter, but i usually use 24bit because of headroom). Then compare them. You will immediately hear why 96 khz is solution :)

    More i'm thinking about it, except of live performance this (non oversampled filters) isn't issue at all :) For realtime you have super efficiency, for export super quality. Best of both worlds.

    Too busy to re-read thread to be sure but wasn’t the original point that people were saying that obsidian doesn’t do analog style oscs/filter/saturation/drive etc as accurately as model d? The way each component reacts with each other is modelled very specifically and painstakingly in an app like Model D. 96khz mixdown isn’t going to make obsidian sound/behave like Model D ;)

    It’s not a big issue though. Obsidian shines elsewhere and Model D AU exists..

  • edited December 2018

    improper reading of what @OhWell wrote from my side, sorry :-)

    i'm talking still and all the time just about solving aliasing issue ... will later make some audio example to make last point in this topic..

    ———————-
    i splited discussion about moog emulation(s) - its interesting topic which deserves own thread ;)

    https://www.blipinteractive.co.uk/community/index.php?p=/discussion/262/moog-model-d-drc-and-other-moog-like-emulationz#latest

  • edited December 2018

    i splited discussion about moog emulation(s) - its interesting topic which deserves own thread ;)

    https://www.blipinteractive.co.uk/community/index.php?p=/discussion/262/moog-model-d-drc-and-other-moog-like-emulationz#latest

  • @OhWell said:
    @flockz Have you tried DRC? I haven't made up my mind about whether I prefer DRC or model D for minimoogish filter sounds, would be curious to hear your take. (I mean, running a single oscillator into the 24db LPF of DRC vs single model D oscillator set to same waveshape into filter. DRC isn't a minimoog clone (e.g. doesn't have the 3 oscillators) and the filters go way beyond minimoog territory..)

    @Cinebient What's your take on the DRC 24db LPF vs Model D?

    Model D is the much better Minimoog for me since it actually emulates it. DRC has a different character. It might be the most dirty analog synth for iOS. It really can make brutal (in a good way) sounds but it´s sometimes a bit harsh and hard to tame. The filter in Model D is just better for me.
    Zeeon is the third i really love. These 3 are my goto on iOS for anlog power and they all have different character like a Pro One doesn´t sounds like a Minimoog or Octave Cat etc.
    DRC gets some extra point since i have it on iOS and on mac as well. From these 3 i also find the GUI and workflow the best.
    I love DRC for weird FX, strings and distorted bass. For juicy filter sweeps and punchy stuff and mellow brass i go for Model D. Zeeon is a monster with the mod-matrix. The most versatile of these and i love the zero delay feedback phaser and the BBD chorus (but the reverb is crap).
    There are just too many synth and my life is too short. Just bought (upraded) to Dune 3 and it´s beyond amazing. Oh and than there is my addiction to sample libraries and apps.
    The great things is most things you learn in synth translates good to others. Sometimes less is more to stay focuses but sometimes more is just more and i love to have choices and almost always i layer sounds to get what i want for a performance (plus extern FX mostly as well).

  • yum. Filters in series in obsidian = ws into lpf for days. Noice!

    Obsidian is so fun!

  • edited December 2018

    There are always compromises. I think Model D's polyphony on iOS is 4 notes - not sure on how much CPU that uses but I'm guessing there's a good reason for that limit.

    Obsidian's aimed at being the built-in workhorse synth and is designed around the 80/20 rule - it gets you by in approx. 80% of cases with approx. 20% of the CPU. There's definitely scope for adding adding further (and more CPU expensive) analog filter types but there's also a good argument for leaving that to AUs where the filter is their USP.

    Just a reality check here: I wouldn't try and take on Moog whilst also trying to maintain a DAW sized app single-handed!

    Although extra filter types would be viable, adding true audio rate modulation to Obsidian would be stretching it too much. The way I see it, you've got 3 things to balance:

    1. Audio rate modulation (with low aliasing)
    2. Configurable/flexible modulation routing
    3. Voice polyphony

    You can get any two of those on iOS, but trying to do all 3 would probably result in Obsidian failing to do the job for which it's intended.

  • @Blip Interactive said:
    There are always compromises. I think Model D's polyphony on iOS is 4 notes - not sure on how much CPU that uses but I'm guessing there's a good reason for that limit.

    Obsidian's aimed at being the built-in workhorse synth and is designed around the 80/20 rule - it gets you by in approx. 80% of cases with approx. 20% of the CPU. There's definitely scope for adding adding further (and more CPU expensive) analog filter types but there's also a good argument for leaving that to AUs where the filter is their USP.

    Just a reality check here: I wouldn't try and take on Moog whilst also trying to maintain a DAW sized app single-handed!

    Although extra filter types would be viable, adding true audio rate modulation to Obsidian would be stretching it too much. The way I see it, you've got 3 things to balance:

    1. Audio rate modulation (with low aliasing)
    2. Configurable/flexible modulation routing
    3. Voice polyphony

    You can get any two of those on iOS, but trying to do all 3 would probably result in Obsidian failing to do the job for which it's intended.

    Maybe it would be easier to revisit these ideas after track freeze arrives. If multiple instance etc is the no.1 usp for Obsidian then that could still kinda remain if we can freeze tracks. But yeah, bit pointless in terms of effort/reward really as there are plenty of other AU out there. Deeper daw functions should be priority for long in to the forseeable imho.

  • @Blip Interactive Your description of the 80/20 rule and the 3 things to balance is super helpful in understanding this whole set of issues and the wisdom behind obsidian. Thank you!

    This whole discussion (and the other thread that branched out) just made me love obsidian as it currently is that much more!

  • @Blip Interactive said:
    There are always compromises. I think Model D's polyphony on iOS is 4 notes - not sure on how much CPU that uses but I'm guessing there's a good reason for that limit.

    Obsidian's aimed at being the built-in workhorse synth and is designed around the 80/20 rule - it gets you by in approx. 80% of cases with approx. 20% of the CPU. There's definitely scope for adding adding further (and more CPU expensive) analog filter types but there's also a good argument for leaving that to AUs where the filter is their USP.

    Just a reality check here: I wouldn't try and take on Moog whilst also trying to maintain a DAW sized app single-handed!

    Although extra filter types would be viable, adding true audio rate modulation to Obsidian would be stretching it too much. The way I see it, you've got 3 things to balance:

    1. Audio rate modulation (with low aliasing)
    2. Configurable/flexible modulation routing
    3. Voice polyphony

    You can get any two of those on iOS, but trying to do all 3 would probably result in Obsidian failing to do the job for which it's intended.

    That explanation makes sense to me. I admit that when I first bought NS2 I was a little disappointed by the sound, partly because it was getting so much praise, so my expectations were for something really spectacular. However now that I've got to know the synth a little better I can appreciate its actual strengths: firstly it's by far the most versatile synth on the platform (no contest there), and also it has a lot of modulation options. Secondly it's very CPU efficient, and for an all-in-one app that's really important (along with its versatility). As an aside I'm really liking the sampling synthesis.

    So you clearly made the right choices when designing the app.

  • @OhWell said:
    @Blip Interactive Your description of the 80/20 rule and the 3 things to balance is super helpful in understanding this whole set of issues and the wisdom behind obsidian. Thank you!

    This whole discussion (and the other thread that branched out) just made me love obsidian as it currently is that much more!

    I agree. I have also discussed the relation of Obsidian to other iOS synths elsewhere - I like discussion and always like to look at all sides of a coin.

    I would like to say to @Blip Interactive that in no way was I looking at changing what Obsidian clearly is and is clearly good at. Obsidian is a well designed built in workhorse synth that allows us to use many tracks within the early stages of a musical idea. While some may ask if additions could be made in the future, I’m sure that many of us are quite happy with what Obsidian is at this time. Personally, I would much prefer the limitations of resources (especially time) to always be spent on additions towards stability, ease of use and any additions to be carefully weighed against what is already available.

    I’m sure sometimes discussion of ‘what we don’t have’, can sometimes be disheartening from a developers perspective. However, the majority of us live in the real world and are quite aware of what is likely and possible considering limited resources and time - feel supported and try not to take discussion to heart in any negative way :)

  • Funny thread.

Sign In or Register to comment.