Model D modulation issue

Hi,
I used Model D for the first time inside NS2 and the modulation sources don’t work (lfo, osc 3, filter env and noise). Then I set all the parameters concerned to the macro knobs (modulation wheel, modulation mix, lfo rate) and I got nothing too. Then I tested Model D inside Cubasis and BM3 and it works fine. I even reinstalled it but it still doesn’t work, I have zero result when I use these parameters. Am I missing something, is it just me ?

Comments

  • Are you saying “when you draw automation and play it back” or “just turning knobs in real-time”?

  • edited January 10

    Problem is that Model D applies modulations only with modwheel... in other words, even if you set amount of modulation and modulation targets in app UI, they are not applied until you don't move modwheel

    Because internally (at performance page) NS doesn't have modwheel, there is no way to apply modulation in Model D

    I was not aware of such weird behaviour. Anyway looks like without adding modwheel to perfirmance page this has no other solution or workaround. I wrote to Matt about this.

    Wondering if just model D works this way or there are sone other synths...

  • edited January 11

    @dendy
    What I don’t understand is that the Modulation Wheel is available in the parameters list and so can be affected to a macro knob, which I did. Like the lfo rate and some other parameters, they are not present on the UI but in the settings menu (except in standalone mode). But even when affected to a macro knob, it does nothing. That’s what intrigues me....
    About other synths, I checked BASSalicious, which has a ModWheel that doesn’t appear on the AU version. But at the contrary of Model D, when you are in the macro menu, you can’t find the ModWheel in the parameters list. So maybe it’s because the Modulation Wheel is a function that can’t be used if it’s not meant in the host program, but this question goes way above my knowledge !

  • @dendy
    I’m gonna check but I’m sure there are other synth apps in this case. So it might be a good thing to implement a Modulation Wheel in Obsidian...

  • Adding a Mod Wheel to the Obsidian/AU Instrument/MIDI Instrument perf page is definitely 'on the list' at this point as it's been requested quite a bit.

    That said, this issue seems weird with Model D. If you can assign a macro to specific modwheel AU Param destination, it should work. I might not be understanding something specific to Model D though, tbh.

    Do you have AUM and Rozeta? If so, I wonder if it works to assign a Rozeta LFO to this same Model D AU Param destination (instead of MIDI CC 1) in AUM?

  • @Will said:
    Do you have AUM and Rozeta? If so, I wonder if it works to assign a Rozeta LFO to this same Model D AU Param destination (instead of MIDI CC 1) in AUM?

    Yes I have, I made the test and it works.
    Buy the way, here are 2 screenshots I forgot to attach to my first post. It shows that the ModWheel of Model D is available in the list of parameters when you are in the macro menu.

  • @Will @Cyril

    That's "Modwheel range" not Modwheel itself... it doesn't work, this parameter doesn't apply modulation.

    Modwheel itself is not it AU params list...

  • @dendy said:
    @Will @Cyril

    That's "Modwheel range" not Modwheel itself... it doesn't work, this parameter doesn't apply modulation.

    Modwheel itself is not it AU params list...

    That’s what I thought.... thanks for the confirmation!

  • Hmm, now I'm even more confused. How did it work in AUM using AU Param automation then?

    As a not-so-awesome work around.... would it be possible to use a separate MIDI Instrument track to send CC1 to the Model D track? I'm not sure if NS supports MIDI THRU like that.

    Even if it works, obviously not a replacement for an actual Mod Wheel on the AU instrument itself but should at least allow for basic operation. It's weird that Moog wouldn't make this available via AU Params since it's such an essential part of the app's sound/engine.

  • Hmm, now I'm even more confused. How did it work in AUM using AU Param automation then?

    Who said it is working in AUM ? I don't see there way to use modwheel to add modulation in Model D inside AUM (or i'm missing something ?)

    It's weird that Moog wouldn't make this available via AU Params

    Yes, definitely weird decision from Moog's side. Probably just somebody forget to add it to AU params list :). But i'm in doubt that they will add it (have they some forum or customer support at all ?), so probably this is thing which Matt needs to solve by simply adding modwheel :(

  • @dendy
    @Will

    I just gave it another try because this thing was bothering me. I was sure I heard the modulation worked the first time I use Model D inside NS2. So I launched Model D and used a preset with the modulation already on (whichever this one was). And after I set the parameter called “ModWheel range” (the word “range” can be confusing) to a Macro knob, this one behaved like a regular modulation wheel, from 0 modulation to 100%. And it does correspond to the Modulation wheel setting which can only be accessed in the setting menu of Model D.
    So I don’t understand why it didn’t work last time, I struggled with it hard enough to conclude that it was an issue coming from NS2 and the lack of modulation wheel in Obsidian.
    So I wanted to make a rectification, at least for Model D. I didn’t check the other synth which ModWheel is not available in the AU version, I’ll let you know...

  • edited January 14

    @Cyril Wait, you are trying to say that "ModWheel range" actually DOES it's job and applies modulation ?? Now i'm super confused - it does not work for me.

    "Modwheel Range" actually just changes % of applying modwheel to modulation amout, which can be set in Model D "settings" page uner "Modulation" tab ... there is "modwheel" option with percentage values from 0 to 100% - this is exactly what you control with "modwheel range" ..

    It cannot work, if it works for you, it's super strange :)

  • @Cyril That's great news. I started to mess with this very path but got distracted.

    @dendy If I'm understanding Cyril correctly, automating 'Range' is essentially the same if you set a ModWheel of 100% in the settings. So...

    Settings ModWheel: 100% + Range: 0 == No modulation.
    Settings ModWheel: 100% + Range: 100% == 100% modulation.
    Settings ModWheel: 100% + Range: 50% == 50% modulation.
    Settings ModWheel: 50% + Range: 100% == 50% modulation.
    Settings ModWheel: 50% + Range: 50% == 25% modulation.
    etc

  • @Will Yes i understand how modwheel range works... but still it doesn't apply modulation if you use it inside NS because you cannot send modwheel value itself... So inside NS2 modwheel value is still 0.

  • @dendy said:
    @Will Yes i understand how modwheel range works... but still it doesn't apply modulation if you use it inside NS because you cannot send modwheel value itself... So inside NS2 modwheel value is still 0.

    Still haven't tried it but was under the impression that the ModWheel slider in Settings set a base value for the mod wheel itself.

  • edited January 14

    No, mod wheel slider in settings == mod wheel range AU param... even if you map MW range to macro, tweak it andvtben you go to settings, you see that slider value is changed..

  • @Will said:

    As a not-so-awesome work around.... would it be possible to use a separate MIDI Instrument track to send CC1 to the Model D track? I'm not sure if NS supports MIDI THRU like that.

    I’m pretty sure that it’s not possible to send midi CC’s to an AU. They get blocked. The only way to control AU instrument parameters seems to be via assigning the 10 macro knobs.

  • @dendy said:
    @Cyril Wait, you are trying to say that "ModWheel range" actually DOES it's job and applies modulation ?? Now i'm super confused - it does not work for me.

    "Modwheel Range" actually just changes % of applying modwheel to modulation amout, which can be set in Model D "settings" page uner "Modulation" tab ... there is "modwheel" option with percentage values from 0 to 100% - this is exactly what you control with "modwheel range" ..

    It cannot work, if it works for you, it's super strange :)

    Yes, it’s super strange ! But here’s the thing which might help to understand what’s going on (at least I hope this will give you more information to help me understand!). In fact, the modulation wheel is working depending on the preset, so it confirms that the parameter named “ModWheel range” is NOT the modulation wheel itself, which is kind a logical. BUT, in many presets, this “ModWheel range” parameter works exactly as the modulation wheel. In my default Macro setup for Model D, the knobs 1,2 and 3 control the LFO rate, the Modulation Mix and the mysterious ModWheel range. When I load a preset where I hear some modulation, whatever the source is, I know my macro will work as a regular modulation wheel, and not just scale limiting the amplitude of the modulation. It goes from 0 to 100%. However, let’s say I launch Model D and start with an initialized preset, then, not only my macro knob will not work, but NONE of the modulation sources are working either. If I go to the settings and set the LFO rate to 50% and the ModWheel Range to 70%, then back on the Model D UI, I won’t hear any modulation from the LFO, but from the other sources as well (osc 3, filter envelope, noise)....
    So here is what I experienced so far, repetitively, with different “scenario”.... If I have some time tomorrow I will make a short video, it will speak for itself and it will be much more explicit than my tedious description;-)...

  • @Cyril said:

    @dendy said:
    @Cyril Wait, you are trying to say that "ModWheel range" actually DOES it's job and applies modulation ?? Now i'm super confused - it does not work for me.

    "Modwheel Range" actually just changes % of applying modwheel to modulation amout, which can be set in Model D "settings" page uner "Modulation" tab ... there is "modwheel" option with percentage values from 0 to 100% - this is exactly what you control with "modwheel range" ..

    It cannot work, if it works for you, it's super strange :)

    Yes, it’s super strange ! But here’s the thing which might help to understand what’s going on (at least I hope this will give you more information to help me understand!). In fact, the modulation wheel is working depending on the preset, so it confirms that the parameter named “ModWheel range” is NOT the modulation wheel itself, which is kind a logical. BUT, in many presets, this “ModWheel range” parameter works exactly as the modulation wheel. In my default Macro setup for Model D, the knobs 1,2 and 3 control the LFO rate, the Modulation Mix and the mysterious ModWheel range. When I load a preset where I hear some modulation, whatever the source is, I know my macro will work as a regular modulation wheel, and not just scale limiting the amplitude of the modulation. It goes from 0 to 100%. However, let’s say I launch Model D and start with an initialized preset, then, not only my macro knob will not work, but NONE of the modulation sources are working either. If I go to the settings and set the LFO rate to 50% and the ModWheel Range to 70%, then back on the Model D UI, I won’t hear any modulation from the LFO, but from the other sources as well (osc 3, filter envelope, noise)....
    So here is what I experienced so far, repetitively, with different “scenario”.... If I have some time tomorrow I will make a short video, it will speak for itself and it will be much more explicit than my tedious description;-)...

    Ah. I think the modwheel value is saved with the patch. If so, for patches with some amount of modwheel pre-applied, range would appear to work.

  • @dendy said:
    No, mod wheel slider in settings == mod wheel range AU param... even if you map MW range to macro, tweak it andvtben you go to settings, you see that slider value is changed..

    Gotcha.

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